Repeating names

Yesterday’s post about the Campos-Duffy family prompted me to look more into what people think about repeating names among siblings. If you remember, they used Pilar (one of my fave Marian names!) as a middle name for three of their girls, and Margarita as a middle for one girl and a first name for another. I’m just noticing too that they used Jack as a middle and John-Paul as a first (it’s the John connection that I’m finding interesting between them).

I think the majority opinion is that names shouldn’t be repeated? Grace (Camp Patton) once said, “Simon came up with Xavier as the middle name and I wish we’d saved that for a first name because I love that name as well.” In the Name Lady’s Can I Recycle a Middle Name post she describes it as “not an ideal situation,” though she also acknowledges that it’s not “totally out of bounds,” and “In fact, quite a few parents give in and reuse older kids’ middle names. You never know it, because they carefully avoid mentioning their children’s middle names at all.” (I would find that so hard! I love each firstname-middlename combo my hubs and I came up with for our boys — I’d hate to feel like I had to “carefully avoid mentioning their … middle names at all”!)

I know a few people who gave multiple children the same middle name — one family gave all the girls the middle name Marie, and two other families I know gave two daughters the middle name Catherine (but not all the daughters). There does seem to be a difference between giving all your children, or all your children of the same gender, the same middle name vs. only giving some children the same name and not the others.

The mumsnet thread Would you reuse a middle name as a subsequent childs first name? brought up several potential issues with reusing names — both using one child’s first name as another’s middle, and even repeating first names:

  • “many people have said to me that in the future DD1 may resent the fact that DD2 “took” part of her name. Or DD2 may resent being “named after” DD1″
  • “I personally wouldn’t do it, although the middle name we’re about to use is gorgeous and I would love to use it as first name, but I don’t want to hold it in reserve in case I don’t end up having another child to use it on!”
  • “I know a guy who is named (first name, middle name, surname) after his older brother who died from SIDS! That’s V weird!” and “I do know a boy who has the same name as his brother, who was stillborn sad and I know somebody who is pg who already have a DD but they are expecting a DS, and they are going to give him the same middle name as their DD’s middle name!”

I was particularly intrigued by the second bulletpoint — I think a lot of people might load up all their fave names at the front end of their family because of not knowing how many they’ll have of one gender — or how many kids they’ll be blessed with overall — and not wanting to miss out on using a beloved name.

Regarding the third bulletpoint, in the old days reuse of names from older deceased child to younger sibling seems to have been somewhat common. Genealogy.com says that,

Up until this century, parents could usually count on one third of their children not surviving. If a child died, the name was often used again. If a baby died, the next child of the same sex would often be given the same name. When checking birth records, you should never stop when you find the name you are looking for. You should continue for a few more years, because the first child could have died and your ancestor could have been the second child in the family with that name. If an older child died, a younger one would often be named for him or her. If you see George in the 1850 census as a six year old and then in the 1860 census as an eight year old, it may mean the first one died shortly after the 1850 census was taken.”

And we’ve seen how at least one Catholic royal family reused names with abandon, and not necessarily because of infant/child death.

I’m not sure what I think about the first bulletpoint. Probably that kids (big and little, adult and not) get in a huff about a million things that parents don’t think they will, and don’t get upset about things parents were sure they would … if I’d chosen to do this with names, my approach would probably just be to be sure to always positively talk about the choice we’d made — make a big deal about how wonderfully meaningful it was meant to be and a choice given in love — so at least if the kids hated it later, they would know it wasn’t done to upset them. And then pray for the best!

I’m also thinking that sometimes, as with one of the families I know that used Catherine as a middle name for two of their daughters, the reasons for using it were different each time — which then sort of makes it like two different names being used: one daughter was named after St. Catherine of Siena, and the other was named after Grandma Catherine. I myself would have used the name once and been pleased with the double honor, but that’s just my personal preference — I can definitely see it seeming like two different names in this scenario, even though it looks and sounds the same. It kind of ties into what Abby wrote in one of my favorite of her posts, The Secret Meaning of Names:

Some of the best names have backstories that are unique to the family in question. Mallory doesn’t mean sorrowful if your parents met in Mallory, Indiana. Then it means “small town where my parents met.” And if your parents happened to meet there because it was a dark and stormy night, and your mom had a flat tire and the repair shop was closed and your dad just happened to be in town for a meeting and suddenly, there they were nursing coffee at the Mallory Diner just one seat apart … well, then your name means “serendipity, twist of fate.””

And it ties into what I wrote in my Nameberry post Good-Intention Baby Naming: “The intention behind the bestowing of the name can be as important—or more so—than the name’s actual origin or meaning or other specifics.”

In the case of the Campos-Duffys, their repeating of names is so exuberant — one of you used the word “confident,” which was so great — that it really strikes me as not that strange at all. And the gorgeousness and saintliness of the names they chose makes me think of that royal names post — each one is sort of decadent and fabulous, really beautiful choices.

What do you all think? Would you (have you?) use one child’s middle name for another’s first name? What about other types of repeating — using the same middle name for all the children, or all one gender, or the names of lost babies (miscarried/stillborn/died when they were older) being given to younger siblings?

Baby name consultant: Five-syllable firstname-middlename(s) combo needed for Baby Boy!

Amanda and her husband Vince are expecting their fifth born baby, a boy, and his firstname-middlename(s) combo has to equal five syllables. How I love a good name challenge!! 🙂

Their other kiddos are:

Oliver Lawrence
Elizabeth Joan (“Ellie or Ellie Jo … I sometimes call her Betty just because I can. 😉 “)
Theodore William (Theo)
Henry John Vincent

As you can see, the firstname-middlename(s) combos equal five syllables, which is, like, Master Class naming. Especially since they did it so well — such great names, all! And, as Amanda explained to me, each combo is full of saintly and family significance.

Names they’ve discussed for this baby boy include:

Sylvester (“my maternal grandfather’s name [and Vince’s top choice] … we really like Sylvester for the middle name and are pretty positive we want to use it there (unless there’s some nickname I’m not thinking of [other than Syl, Sly, and Slivy, which is what her grandfather went by] so that we could use it for a first name“)

Felix (“my top choice. St. Felix and the Spider is one of the books the kiddos received for Christmas, and I love the story … [but] there’s the reference to a cartoon cat… along with Sylvester the cartoon cat… I don’t really care – should that be an issue?!?“)

Declan (“It’s Irish, and I know it’s a saint’s name but I don’t know his story. I like it because it is different and I know no one by that name [but it’s] not as “soft” sounding as our other names… We don’t have any hard D or K sounds“)

Aidric (“Again, it’s an Irish saint’s name but I don’t know the story. Same with Declan on being different and obscure“)

Ivan ([Vince’s other top choice.] “I don’t know the saint story… I think it’s Russian, so it doesn’t go with our Irish/British thing, but it is regal sounding, like Elizabeth“)

And others that aren’t as serious as those listed above:

Linus
Louis
Milo
Silas
Levi
Otis

Finally, Amanda doesn’t want to repeat any names already used by family or close friends, which knocks off:

Gabriel
Augustine
Blaise
Kolbe
Xavier
Matthew
Michael
Isaac
Peter
Owen
Andrew
David
Jeffrey
Anthony
Caleb
Max
Wyatt
Timothy
Christopher
Nicholas
Joseph
Daniel
Samuel
John
Francis
Benjamin
Aaron
Zachary

Whew! Amanda concludes,

Again, we really like Sylvester for the middle name and are pretty positive we want to use it there (unless there’s some nickname I’m not thinking of so that we could use it for a first name). Vince is almost sold on Felix, just can’t see it for a baby. We used to really like Raphael, but it goes over my 5-syllable limit if Sylvester is the middle name. We’re open to more suggestions but I think those five we have go well with Sylvester as the middle name. Which of them fit best with our other boys, or is there a better one out there we haven’t found yet?

So first off, a couple thoughts about their current name list:

Sylvester is a NAME! Whoa! I’ve never known anyone considering it! Kudos to Amanda and Vince! Syl and Sly I’ve heard of, but not Slivy – that’s interesting! The only other nickname I came up with that might be doable is Sully. Maybe? I agree it’s a great middle name with the other names on their list, though it does lock them into a two-syllable name. Not that that’s a bad thing at all.

Felix is definitely getting a lot of love among Catholic families these days — I see it on people’s lists a lot, and there’s one Catholic family on the Baby Name Wizard forums that has three boys: Felix, Xavier, and Raphael. So it’s definitely out there, and at least among young Catholic families I don’t think the cartoon characters are an issue, like Amanda said. Although … even as I typed that and reread her Felix paragraph … Felix Sylvester … all of a sudden the two-character-names thing is really hitting me! I don’t know, I think it could go either way. Totally depends on who’s hearing the names. I think a deciding factor would be if it bothered Amanda and Vince if people pointed it out a lot after they’d already named the baby? What do you all think?

I personally love Declan. I know a few, including my cousin’s 2yo, and she’d chosen the name 15 years ago when she and I were in Ireland together and she heard it for the first time – that’s some name love! I actually didn’t know his story either, other than he was a saint, but because of Amanda’s email I looked him up, and while you can certainly get his basic story from Wikipedia and similar sites, I loved this one the best – it was written in 1914 and translated from the Irish (!); it has a long explain-y intro; and the main bulk of it is the life of St. Declan – he was preaching when St. Patrick arrived! And he seems quite beloved in Ardmore. It’s definitely an authentic Irish Catholic name!

Aidric I’d actually never heard of, but when I googled it, a post by Abby at Appellation Mountain came up – she does a great review of the name as both a saint’s name and a boy’s name in today’s America. I’m only seeing that he was French though, not Irish? Though it definitely sounds Irish, like a mashup of Aiden and Patrick.

Ivan, another WOW name! I think immediately of both Ivan the Great and Ivan the Terrible. It’s Russian for John, so when I googled it I saw references to both St. Ivan Rilski and St. John of Rila – same guy. It’s a cool way to honor a John, if you like heavy Russian names.

So of all those, I think Declan Sylvester is my favorite. It continues their Brit/Irish theme, and it’s got the right number of syllables, very handsome!

Okay! On to my suggestions – I can always come up with some! And holy cow – alllll the names that are off limits!! I think I did okay though – I always shoot for three suggestions, but came up with a couple more than that (they’re all two syllables, to go with the three-syllable Sylvester):

(1) Patrick
As far as I can tell, neither Patrick nor Brendan (below) has been used by someone in Amanda’s friends/family (fingers crossed!). I know they’re pretty basic as far as Irish-y boys’ names go, but I like them both with Sylvester, and there are some great nicknames for Patrick too: Patch and Packy are my faves, but I know a couple little Patricks who go by Paddy, which is beyond darling.

(2) Brendan or Brannoc(k)
St. Brendan is certainly a great Irish saint, and St. Brannock is a British/Celtic/Welsh saint as well — I like that Brannoc(k) has similar sounds as Brendan but is more offbeat/unusual.

(3) Ian or Ivo or Hugo (or Conrad!)
Ian and Ivo were inspired by Ivan, but I thought Ian especially fell within Amanda’s taste better. It’s a Scottish form of John (the Irish Sean doesn’t have enough syllables), and I like it with Sylvester. Ivo is definitely an offbeat choice, but it’s the name of several saints (more familiar under the forms Yves or Ives). It’s not an Irish or British name, but I believe it’s well used in England, which is why I thought it might work for this family. Then I thought of Hugh, but it doesn’t work because it’s only one syllable, but the variant Hugo is the perfect length. (My husband kind of loves this name, and really wanted me to suggest it to Amanda!) (Incidentally, two of the names we considered for our youngest were Hugo and Conrad – which reminded me immediately that Amanda shared that Vince’s middle name is Conrad – I’d be a big fan of adding Conrad to the list! Conrad Sylvester is so cool!)

(4) Robert nicked Rory
Finally, I thought of Rory, but it didn’t have a formal enough feel to me, to go with the other kids’ names. Robert might work though – St. Robert Bellarmine is great – and I’ve long thought Rory could be a nickname for Robert. Robert Sylvester is very handsome.

Those are my ideas! What do you all think? Amanda and Vince would love suggestions, so go ahead and fire away!

Spotlight on: Atticus

(I put all the giveaways in the mail this morning — look for them at the end of this week/beginning of next! And please let me know if yours doesn’t arrive!)

You’ve all likely heard the news by now, right? Beloved Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird — who actually had a whole bunch of babies named after him (name story given here, several noted in the comments here, and quite a few celeb babies who may or may not have been named for the character but there’s a high likelihood he was at least part of the inspiration) because of his goodness, and who inspired a baby name book (one of my faves: A is for Atticus: Baby Names from Great Books by Lorilee Craker) — has been shown, in Harper Lee’s new book released today, Go Set a Watchman, to not be the virtuous man we all thought him to be. (Disclaimer: I haven’t read the novel, so all my info is coming from what I read in various places, but mostly here: Review: Harper Lee’s ‘Go Set a Watchman’ Gives Atticus Finch a Dark Side.)

What a devastation for so many parents! My husband and I ourselves even considered Atticus when naming our boys, in large part because of the reputation of goodness and justice it carries because of the Mockingbird character. For us, however, a literary character, no matter how beloved, couldn’t have been the only reason to choose a name, and so I had cause years ago to look up whether Atticus is a saint’s name, and therein lies the balm for the parents of little Atticus-es: Atticus the Saint!

Parents who named their children for a good man in Atticus Finch can rest assured that St. Atticus is even better a person to be named for: he was real, for one thing, and has already finished the race and won the crown. From CatholicSaints.Info:

Atticus supported the Macedonian heresy (i.e., the Holy Spirit is not God), opposed Saint John Chrysostom, and worked against him at the Council of Oak in 405. When John was exiled fromConstantinople, Atticus assumed the bishopric in 406. He eventually realized his error, repented his opposition, and submitted to Pope Innocent I‘s rulings. He remained as bishop, but a virtuous and orthodox one, and an opponent of heretics.”

His feast day is January 8. (I do believe he’s profiled in Our Sunday Visitor’s Encyclopedia of Saints, Second Edition by Matthew Bunson, though I haven’t read it myself.) (It’s definitely on my wishlist!)

You know me — I have to have a good nickname figured out before deciding on a name — and Atticus confounded me for a while. I didn’t care for Atty because of its similarity to the feminine Addy (though I’ve seen some parents of Atticus-es saying they use Atty), but then in various places I’ve seen Ace, Gus, and Kit — all of which I think are great!

What do you all think of Atticus? Does the new Harper Lee novel tarnish it for you? If so, does its saintliness redeem it? Do you know anyone who named their son Atticus, and if so, what do they think of all this hubbub?

Baby name consultant: Boy #3 needs a name!

Anna emailed with a dilemma I’d not yet encountered here! First, her other boys are named:

Theodore Randell (called Teddy)
William Gerald (called William or Will)

Such handsome combos! Anna writes,

We are drawn toward strong classic names that (hopefully) aren’t overly common and that have cute (but not cutesy) nicknames that can grow or evolve with the boys. Randell and Gerald are the first names of our fathers and fit with the strong classic name theme. We LOVE the names Charles Russell (Charlie) buuuuuut, we have a cat named Charlie. Try as we might, I don’t know that we can get past the association with our darn cat. 😉 “

Ack!

I especially appreciate your ability to come up with alternate nicknames, as I am so NOT creative in that sense! … Russell is DH’s late grandfather’s name. At one point we considered it as a first name but were at a loss for suitable nicknames (Russ and Rusty are out and… that’s as far as my creativity goes with nicknames).”

My first thought was: Charles Russell is an amazing combination!! So handsome, and such a perfect match with brothers Theodore Randell and William Gerald. I’m so impressed!

Second, a cat named Charlie! Oof! That’s a really hard thing to work around! One possible way is to use a nickname for Charles that’s not Charlie. There was an Appellation Mountain post a while back with unusual nicknames for Charles — Cal is one of my favorites for it, and some other really offbeat ideas (I tend to love offbeat nicknames) like Chase or Huck (if Chuck, why not Huck?), which made me think Hutch might work too. I like all those, and I’ll also offer that one of my boys goes exclusively by a nickname for his middle name, so that’s a possibility too.

Which brings me to her question about Russell nicknames. I’m a little crazy about nicknames — I can almost always come up with some!! 🙂 A lot of times they’re just too out there for people, but … what about:

(1) Sully
This is hands down my favorite nickname idea for Russell! Sully is just taking the Russell letters and mixing them up a bit. Also, when I say Russell, the “ssell” ending sounds a lot like “sull” to my ear, so Sully seems a natural extension nickname for Russell. I love it!

(2) Rob(bie) or Rod(dy) or Rory
Another way I like to come up with nicknames is by combining elements of the first name with elements of the second. A combination like Russell Bernard or Russell Benedict might lend itself to a nickname like Rob or Robbie — the R from Russell and the B from the middle name. Or maybe something like Russell David or Russell Daniel? Which could lead to Rod or Roddy, both of which I think are really cute (like Roddy McDowell!). Or maybe Roddy’s too close to Teddy? I’m not sure what I think. I could also see Rory working as a nickname for Russell Bernard or Russell Robert, where there’s the R from the first name and R’s in the middle as well.

(3) Rudy or Ray
The idea of Russell David made me think of Rudy as well. It’s a more obvious nickname for Russell David (and really, I could see Rudy being a nickname for Russell anyway, regardless of middle name). Funny enough, I looked up Rudy in my Baby Name Wizard book, which I rely on a lot for inspiration in these consultations, and it said Teddy is similar in style and feel! So cool! And the movie Rudy would be so fun to show a little Rudy when he grew up. I also thought Ray could work — just because it seems like a short form of an R name. Ray could also be a firstname+middlename combo nickname, like from Russell Avery or Russell Aidan or similar.

So those are my thoughts for nicknames. As for other ideas for first names, I always shoot for three, and this is what I came up with:

(1) Louis
Going back to the Baby Name Wizard book, it has this awesome feature where it provides, for each entry, boy and girl names that are similar in style/feel/popularity. It’s often pretty spot-on for predicting other names parents might like, based on the names they’ve already used and/or are considering. Louis was shown to be similar to both Theodore and Charles, which I thought was amazing. Louis is distinguished and saintly, and the nickname Louie is adorable. I know a little Louis nicked Louie, and he’s a great kid, so I have only positive associations for this name. Louis Russell?

(2) Henry
Henry also did quite well for this family in the BNW book — similar to Theodore, William, and Charles! And Harry, which is a traditional nickname for Henry, was shown to be similar to Charlie. I also like the nickname Hank. Henry Russell sounds quite nice to me.

(3) Edward
I was reluctant to suggest this, since Anna calls her Theodore “Teddy,” but Edward was shown to be similar to William and Charles (and Edmund to Theodore). It’s totally workable I think — Edward could go by the nickname Ward (which I’ve seen), or — and this is crazy! — my dad once worked with a man named Edward who went by Zeb! I like Edward Russell a lot.

So those are my ideas for this new little boy! What do you all think? What names would you suggest for Theodore/Teddy and William/Will’s little brother?


I love to do name consultations! If you’d like me to give your name dilemma a go, check out my Baby name consultant tab.

On my bookshelf: A Dictionary of English Surnames

I saw A Dictionary of English Surnames (3rd Edition) by P.H. Reaney and R.M. Wilson recommended in a thread on the Baby Name Wizard site a while ago, referred to as a source of info for first names, and maybe I was the tiniest bit skeptical (how does surname info translate into first name info?) but the person recommending it was a longtime reader/commenter on the site and one whose knowledge base I had come to find dependable, so I bought a used copy.

It took me a little while to get into it. I like to read name books — sit down and read — and this book initially didn’t seem to lend itself to that — the type is small and it has a very dictionary feel (where dictionary=small type, lots of words on a page, lots of technical abbreviations that you always feel like you’re supposed to understand without checking out the key at the beginning of the book, maybe a little overwhelming). But I kept at it, picking it up here and there for a couple minutes each time. I started out by looking up my own last name, and those of people I know, and I really started to get into it. For one thing, there are loads of surnames that are considered “English surnames” for the purposes of this book, that I would never have thought! Like Devereaux. Because “English surname”=surnames used by people living in England, and this book cites instances going back to the 1000s. So, using Devereaux as an example:

Deveraux, Devereaux, Devereu, Devereux, Deveroux, Deverose, Everix, Everiss, Everest, Everist: Roger de Ebrois 1086 DB (Nf); Walter de Eureus 1159 P (He); Stephen de Euereus 1199 MemR (Wo); Osmund de Deuereals ib. ( W); Eustace de Deueraus 1204 P (So); Thomas de Euereus, Deuereus 1279 AssSo; John de Ebroicis 1297 AssSt; John Deveros 1385 LLB H; Robert Everis 1495 GildY. From Evreux (Eure), from the Celtic tribal name Eburovices ‘dwellers on the Ebura or Eure River’.”

(See what I mean about the abbreviations? A little off-putting, right? Stay with me …)

Did you know that Devereaux and Everest are related? Me either! And did you see those dates? A Roger de Ebrois from Norfolk (Nf) was recorded in DB (Domesday Book) in 1086. 1086! The first fifty seven pages of the book discuss how the surnames used in England came to be, explaining a French name like Devereaux (lots of Norman influence).

And there is indeed loads of info useful for choosing first names. Many of the surnames were patronymics, for one thing, identifying a person by his or her father, and some were metronymics, identifying a person by his or her mother — so those surnames began as first names. Other surnames were nicknames, pet names, or diminutives, either for a person’s characteristics, or for their actual given first name. Some of my favorite discoveries:

Fayle comes from the Irish Mac Giolla Phoil “son of Paul’s servant”

Fiddy, Fido, Fidoe come from the French fitz deu “son of God”

Filkin, Filkins, Filson are diminutives of Phil, which of course is from Philip

Pack, Packe, Paik, Pakes, Pash, Pashe, Paish, Pask, Paske, Pasque, Patch, Patchett, Patchin are all from various words (Old French, Middle English) for Easter; another example is given of William Paskessone, where Paskessone=son of Paske.

Scollas is a last name from the first name Scolace, which “appears to be the vernacular form of [Latin] Scholastica, the name of a saint who was the sister of St Benedict and the first nun of the order. It is found as a christian name in England from the late 12th century until the Reformation.”

Vivian, Vivians, Vivien, Vyvyan, Videan, Vidgen, Vidgeon, Vigeon, Fiddian, Fidgen, Fidgeon, Phethean, Phythian are all from the French Vivian, Vivien, which are from the Latin Vivianus, which is “a derivative of vivus ‘living,’ the name of a 5th-century martyr not uncommon in England from the 12th century. Its pronunciation appears to have caused difficulty and it is found in a bewildering variety of forms, not all of which have survived. In the south, the v was regarded as the normal southern pronunciation of f and was replaced by it. As the child says fum for thumb, and fevver for feather, and the dialect-speaker favver for father, Fivian became Fithian, and this, with the common interchange of intervocalic th and d, gave Fidian. The initial Ph is merely scribal. As Goodier becomes Goodger and Indian is often colloquially Injun, so Fidian became Fidgeon and Vidian, Vidgen. The normal Vivian is much more common than appears from the above forms.”

But my very very favorite discovery was this: Marriott is from “Mari-ot, a very common diminutive of Mary.”

Aren’t these amazing finds?? Can’t you see a baby Philip being called Filkins? What about the Easter names, like Pack, Patch, Pask, Pash, Patchett, and Patchin? I can see them all being used as given names, and what an awesome meaning — offbeat Catholic names are my favorite favorites!

Or wanting to honor Grandma Vivian but expecting a boy? I love Fiddian and Fithian, I see them as absolutely doable. (Also, I posted a fun thing the other day that shows what a full name looks like written out in different styles — like a name you’re considering for your baby, for example — and Laura commented that she found a perhaps unsettling disconnect between the sight and sound of some of her name ideas, so I found it particularly interesting that the Vivian quote above included the note, “The initial Ph is merely scribal.” It’s startling, to us parents who agonize over whether to name our daughters Sophia or Sofia, to think there was a time when the spelling of a name was a very distant afterthought — and maybe never even given a thought at all, until or unless it had to be written down for official reasons, and then only written down by officials, who probably decided how to spell what they heard. I guess it’s not that different from what happened to some at Ellis Island. Fascinating.)

(The Vivian example is also really timely in light of the awesome post up over at Appellation Mountain: 9 Creative Ways to Honor Loved Ones With Your Child’s Name. As I noted on FB, I’ve been wanting to write about this very topic for some time, but Abby did it so well! It’s an awesome resource, and the examples given in the comments are really helpful as well. This book could absolutely help with her first suggestion, “Use another form of the honoree’s name.”)

I am barely scratching the surface with the examples I give here — this book is over 500 pages of small-type info like what I shared above. It’ll take me ages to get through the whole thing, so if any of you read it and come across any other nuggets, please share them here!

 

Baby name consultant: Baby Floyd #4

Emily and Ben Floyd are expecting their fourth baby, and though they don’t know the gender, they’re “feeling ‘girl.'” Their other kiddos are:

Gwenevere Marie (Gwen)
Avalene Ruth (Avie)
Gideon Elias

I love their style!! Some of the names one or both of them like that they can’t use include:

Midas (unusable because of the company)
Ulysses (related to the Greek for “to hate”)
Georgiana nicked Georgie/Ana
Alexandria nicked Alex
Walter nicked Walt

Emily writes,

My husband, Ben, especially likes unique and unpopular names. He will often ask me how popular a name is when I suggest one! I know Gideon is getting more popular, but we both really liked it and can have a hard time agreeing! 😉 … I love to read and it heavily influences my favorite names. Like Georgiana! We also love names with legends and stories, like with Gwenevere and Gideon and Midas. Avalene was named after seeing a picture of my great-great aunt who was a nun, her name was Sister Avallina. After beginning RCIA we found out that our Avalene was born on the feast day of Teresa of Avila! I have a special devotion to the Blessed Mother and to St Joan of Arc. I also love Pope Francis, as he became Pope right before we joined the Church. Gwen would have been Charles/Charlie if a boy. But we don’t re-use the other gender name if that makes sense! Almost like it’s still the child’s name in a way … We also keep the syllables of the names in mind & all three kids have three syllable first names. Because our last name is so short & common, we like the long, unique first name to balance it out.”

(Isn’t Avalene’s name story awesome??) Current frontrunners for a girl are:

Winifred nicked Winnie or Freddie
Eleanor nicked Nora or Nori
Edith
Gabriella

And for a boy:

Augustine nicked Auggie

I had a lot of fun with this dilemma — working with Ben’s love of “unique” and “unpopular” names was challenging but so interesting!

First off, some thoughts about their current ideas: As you all know, I rely heavily on the Baby Name Wizard book for inspiration — for each entry it provides lists of boy and girl names that are similar to the entry in style/feel/popularity — and Winifred is spot on, having connections to both Ulysses and Gwenevere — nice job Mom and Dad! Unfortunately, Ben is right to be concerned about the popularity of Eleanor and Edith — I see Eleanor used a lot, and Edith is starting to be as well. They’re both great names! But not so unique or unpopular anymore. Every once in a while I see the spelling Elanor instead of Eleanor, and wondered if they’d like that? It’s literary — both a flower and a character in Lord of the Rings. And I wondered if Esther might interest them instead of Edith? It’s similar to both Walter and Edith in style/feel/popularity, and I really like that it’s biblical, so it can loop Gideon in as well. Gabriella is a lovely lovely name, but I do think it’s pretty popular? And Augustine — I see it allll the time among the Catholic families I know. We almost used it! I do love it, it’s a great name — but I don’t think it passes their unique/unpopular test. Ambrose, on the other hand, might, so I wonder if they’d like that? I do hear it from time to time in Catholic circles, but not a whole lot, and I feel like the rest of the world doesn’t even know it exists! I’ve often thought Sam and Bram could be good nicknames for it.

I did come up with some other suggestions that I think Emily and Ben might like. I relied heavily on their love of literature/stories and Ben’s preference for unique and/or unpopular, with a saintly or biblical spin when possible. I always shoot for three for each gender, but I ended up with five for girls and three for boys:

Girl
(1) Darcy
I’m not entirely convinced that they’ll like this, because it seems so different to me from their other names, but the reasons behind why I’m including here have me just swoony! Okay, Emily said she loves Georgiana because of Pride and Prejudice, and she has a special devotion to St. Joan of Arc … the two thoughts were swirling around in my head while I was working on this for them, and all of a sudden I sat straight up with an exhilarating thought! I scrambled to look it up and — yes! — Darcy (as in Mr. Darcy) comes from the French d’Arcy, meaning “from Arcy,” and Joan of Arc’s name in French is Jeanne d’Arc, and while I haven’t been able to verify that d’Arc and d’Arcy mean the same thing, I’m going to guess that they do, and even if they don’t, it’s totally close enough that the connection is there. Whew! When all that occurred to me I felt like dusting my hands off and saying my work here is done. Haha! It’s definitely unique and unpopular, and Emily said she loves Pope Francis right after she was talking about Joan of Arc so in my mind they’re now together: Darcy Frances. That is a great name for the daughter of Catholic, literature-loving, somewhat-contrarian-naming parents. 🙂

(2) Melisande
In general, it was hard to find much overlap in the styles of the names they’ve already chosen and the names they’re now considering. So Melisande was only in the list of names similar to Gwenevere, but it jumped right out at me as a possibility. I’ve always liked it, and I think Gwenevere, Avalene, and Melisande make a smashing group of sisters. It’s got literary roots too, as in the (admittedly pretty sad) play-turned-opera Pelleas et Melisande. It’s definitely unique/unpopular.

(3) Sidony/Sidonie
I came across this name a a few months ago while doing a consultation for another family, and its meaning just blew me away: “[Sidony] was formerly used by Roman Catholics for girls born about the date of the Feast of the Winding Sheet (i.e., of Christ), more formally alluded to as ‘the Sacred Sendon’. Sendon or Sindon (from Latin sindon … ‘fine cloth’, ‘linen’) was used in Middle English for a fine cloth, especially one used as a shroud. The Sacred Sendon is supposed to be preserved at Turin … Sidonie is not uncommon in France, and the Irish Sidney is probably really Sidony.” (pp. 268-269, Withycombe). When I saw it listed as similar in style to Avalene, I knew I had to include it!

(4) Miranda or Imogen
I was playing off their love of literature here, and trying to think of literary names that were also unique and/or unpopular — Miranda and Imogen immediately came to mind — I thought they both went well with the other kids.

(5) Mercy or Mercedes
I felt like it was easier for me to think of names that fit Gwenevere and Avalene and Winifred and Walter than it was to think of names that fit with Gideon. I love the name Gideon, and if it didn’t clash with our last name, I’d want to use it in a heartbeat. But his style seems a bit more … offbeat? than their other ideas. So when I saw Mercy listed as a girl’s name similar in style to Gideon, I thought it was definitely worth a mention. My idea here was Our Lady of Mercy, because Emily said she has a special devotion to Our Lady. I know a little girl whose middle name is Mercy for OL of Mercy, and any baby born this year and given a name with a connection to Mercy is doubly blessed because Pope Francis declared it the Year of Mercy! So great! I also thought Mercedes (“mercies,” from the Marian title Our Lady of Mercies, aka Our Lady of Ransom) might be of interest.

Boy
(1) Leopold
Leopold’s such a great name! It’s similar in style to Ulysses and Winifred, and it has the amazing nickname Leo. When I looked it up, I was impressed by its pedigree — saintly and royal, both — but what really clinched it for me was that it was “used by James Joyce for the main character, Leopold Bloom, in his novel ‘Ulysses’ (1920).” I know that a character’s name in a novel called the same name as another name one likes does not necessarily mean that one will like the first name, but it seemed too coincidental to pass up, especially with its connection to Winifred.

(2) Fitzwilliam
And again, I’m drawing inspiration from P&P. I was trying to think of names that will always be somewhat unique/unpopular, no matter the changing tide of societal taste, and I thought surnames are one of those that may tend to fit that category. Certainly some have become popular, like Taylor, but when Mr. Darcy’s first name came to mind I thought aha! I can’t imagine Fitzwilliam charging up the charts any time soon. Fitz and Will are both natural and awesome nicknames for it, and I kind of really really love Fitzwilliam Floyd. That has such a ring to it!!!

(3) Gennaro
This was listed as similar to Avalene, and I probably wouldn’t have given it any thought except that Pope Francis recently had that amazing thing happen where the blood of St. Gennaro (also known as St. Januarius) liquified in our Holy Father’s presence. I knew a Gennaro growing up, and I had the name on my list for years, even though I don’t have a drop of Italian blood. I love it, it’s a very cool name. I do realize that using it would leave Avalene out first-initial-wise, but I had to suggest it anyway.

Those are my ideas! What do you all think? What names would you suggest for this family?


I love to do name consultations! If you’d like me to give your name dilemma a go, check out my Baby name consultant tab.

Marian name spotlighted over at Appellation Mountain

Abby at Appellation Mountain is discussing Aranza today, one of the fastest-rising girl’s names of 2014 according to the SSA stats and a diminutive of the Marian name Arantzazu. It’s a pretty great write-up, be sure to check it out!

What do you think of Aranza? Do you know anyone in real life with this name?

Baby name consultant: Baby #4 (boy names the hardest!)

Theresa emailed me about a month ago hoping for help with names for her Baby #4.

We are expecting our fourth this fall (almost out of our first trimester!) and would love love love your expertise with some suggestions. Obviously, we have a lot of time but we really like to name the baby shortly after we find out what it is, probably around the end of May/beginning of June because it really helps my husband and kids bond … We go for double Saint names for sure and mostly old/long names for girls, but not necessarily on purpose … Boy names are so much harder! … I don’t really know what boy names [my husband] likes. I don’t know if he knows … He doesn’t like names that are super specific to any ethnicity (Seamus, Carlos, Giovanni) or most Old Testament names (Noah, Elijah, Isaac) or names that are gender neutral or feminine sounding. If you can find a boy name we both like, I will be amazed!

Oh husbands!! It was fun for me to come up against a really tough nut. I’m encouraged though because they’ve chosen some wonderful names together — their other kids’ are:

Elizabeth Anne Jude (“Anne is my middle name, Elizabeth just came to both of us at the same time and then the Mass reading a few days later was the Visitation, so we took it as a sign. Jude was because we had suffered a miscarriage before her (whom we named Felicity Jane) and thought a few times that we were losing her as well and prayed to St. Jude and she was fine“)

Adelaide Therese (“I have loved Adelaide for a long time and was stoked when I found out she was a Saint. My husband was hesitant at first but it grew on him. He picked Therese for the middle — sort of for me since I am Theresa“)

Roy Patrick (“He is the third, I did not choose his name, although I like Patrick … He mostly goes by Patch“)

For girls, they both like Genevieve, Charlotte (“but I don’t love how popular it is” … and now that the Princess is here …?), and a family name Mariemma (pronounced like Mary Emma). Theresa also likes Lucy, Evelyn, Eleanor, Louisa, Eloise, Bridget, and Cecily, while her husband likes Margaret (Maggie) and Rosemary (maybe nicked Rory or Romy).

For boys, they’ve discussed Augustine nicked Gus, which Theresa loves but her husband’s not sure. Theresa also loves Finnian (but already used by family), Seamus, Blaise, Ambrose, and double names like John Paul. Her husband likes James nicked Jimmy, Dexter, Peter, Thomas, and John.

Whew!

I wanted to address their current ideas first: After reading their already-born kids’ names, before I even got to what names they’re thinking of, my first thought was Genevieve — and there it was on their list! So that’s definitely one of my top choices for them, especially since it’s one Theresa and her husband both like. Their other ideas for girls are spot-on as well — if I were to nitpick, in the interest of narrowing down their list, I might delete Eleanor and Eloise, because they already have an El- (Elizabeth), but Louisa is a great alternative (especially being so similar to Eloise). Additionally, I’ve always thought Lucy could totally work as a nickname for Louisa, so I would combine those two into one idea. I like Evelyn, Bridget, Cecily, Charlotte (but the Princess!), Margaret/Maggie (or one of the other traditional but offbeat nicks, like Daisy or Maisie?), and Rosemary, I’m also really loving Mariemma for them! What a cool combo, and so great that it’s a family name! They don’t have a Marian name in their crew already, so that would be a great nod to Our Lady.

And the boy ideas: Too bad about Finnian! Such a cool name! Augustine/Gus seems like it fits right in with the other kids (maybe The Mister would warm to August if he can’t to Augustine?). I’d probably delete Seamus because Theresa said her hubs doesn’t care for ethnic names (or maybe put it in the middle?) … Blaise is so cool, and the men I know tend to like it/not hate it because it sounds like Blaze=fast and fiery and just all around cool. Ambrose is great, and I wondered if a nickname like Sam would help The Mister come around? Sam totally works as a nick for Ambrose!! Double names for boys are pretty rare, except John Paul, but I think that there are loads of great combinations one could come up with. (But I do not like Billy Bob, which is probably what many of the men in my life would use as a reason not to double name a boy. Men!)

The Mister’s boy names are hilarious — they were basically what I’d expect, but then … Dexter?? Wow! I’ve taken it as a particular challenge to find a boy name he and Theresa both like!

Okay, now for my suggestions (besides what I mentioned above) … I always shoot for three for each gender, but came up with four for girls, and I went a little heavier on the boy suggestions, since Theresa said they were so hard:

Girls

(1) Josephine
As I’m sure you all know from reading other consultations on my blog, I rely heavily on the Baby Name Wizard book when coming up with ideas. It has this awesome feature where, for each entry, it lists boy and girl names that are similar in style/feel/popularity. Josephine was all over Theresa and hubs’ list!! Of course it’s an amazing saintly name, both for wonderful St. Joseph and St. Josephine Bakhita (I was reading about her recently — amazing woman!). It’s got the greatest nicknames too — Josie of course, and Jo (like Little Women!), and I totally think Sophie could work as a nickname too.

(2) C/Katherine or C/Karoline
My research showed Catherine, Katherine, and Katie as quite similar to their style. They’re great names (so says a Katherine/Kate who has always loved my name and been grateful to my parents for it!), and Katie/Kate/Kat and even Cass or Casey (as I’ve seen both) are great nicknames.

If Charlotte is too popular for them (and it is very popular) (and the Princess!), I wonder if they’d like Caroline or Karoline? Either could be a great honor name for our great St. John Paul II (birth name Karol). Especially spelled with a K, it’s much less popular than Charlotte, while still being in the same name family (Charles).

(3) Sara(h) (+___?)
This was so unexpected to me! But Sara(h) was even more a match for the names Theresa mentioned and ones that I thought fit their style than Josephine! It showed up as similar to Elizabeth, Adelaide, Thomas, John, and Katherine, so I had to include it here. But with Elizabeth and Adelaide being long-ish names, and Theresa’s ideas of Genevieve, Rosemary, Margaret, Charlotte also being long, I thought maybe a Sara(h) double first name would suit better? Like Sara-Kate (could even be a nickname for the first-middle Sara Katherine) or Sara-Clare/Claire or Sarah-Mae or similar? (With or without hyphens; with or without the H on the end of Sara.)

(4) Penelope or Beatrice/Beatrix
These were my offbeat research results that I just couldn’t not mention. Penelope, which is such a fab name, is a style match for Felicity, Eleanor, Rosemary, and DEXTER! What?!!! Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, there’s no St. Penelope (recognized by our Church anyway; I believe there’s one recognized by the Orthodox Church), but I did find that it’s said to St. Irene’s original name, so that could work, right? Like Saul/Paul, Abram/Abraham, Simon/Peter? And Beatrice and Beatrix were so similar to a bunch of Theresa’s name ideas that I had to throw it out here. I also read about its origins recently, and loved it, very faith-y.

Boys

(1) Francis nicknamed Finn
You all probably saw this as one of my suggestions for the Pattons — I just love it. I think it hits such a great spot right now, with the heavier, more serious Francis (that’s a little out of touch with current naming tastes, but so important to so many of us) and the fun, current, ah-MAZing nickname Finn! This seems particularly great for Theresa and her hubs, where Francis seems more along his taste lines, and Finn for her Finnian.

(2) Benedict or Bennett
This was really inspired by Dexter — I was so blown away by its inclusion in The Mister’s list of names that I paid extra attention to it, trying to find any connections. Barrett was listed as a similar boy’s name, which immediately made me think of Bennett, which is a medieval form of Benedict. Bennett on its own would be great, and Ben is an awesome nickname, but maybe they’d prefer the full Benedict? Bennett could still be a nickname, or Ben (or even Bede, which I’m sure The Mister would hate but I love the idea of two heavy-hitting saints in one name!). Benedict is similar in style to Genevieve and Penelope and John Paul, so it is connected to other names that seem to fit their style.

(3) Theodore
What would The Mister think of Theodore? It’s a style match for Adelaide, Augustine, Josephine, and Penelope, and it’s got the awesome nicknames Theo or Ted/Teddy (so cute for a little guy!). Maybe?

(4) Charles
Charles too was quite similar to many of the names on their list and my-list-for-them, and would give the name family of Charlotte without the Charlotte popularity. It could also be an honor name for JP2 (Karol=Charles), and while some families haven’t care for Charlie’s rising popularity among girls recently (as a nick for Charlotte), I think it’s totally fine for a boy, but there are other nicknames for Charles as well — Cal being one of my favorites, and some really offbeat ones like Huck, Hutch, Arlo, or we seriously considered Charles Augustine nicked Gus — maybe something like that would work for them?

So! That’s what I came up with! What do you all think? What names would you suggest for Theresa and her husband?


I love to do name consultations! If you’d like me to give your name dilemma a go, check out my Baby name consultant tab.

Spotlight on: Joachim

A reader asked me if I would do a spotlight on Joachim, and I’m very happy to do so, because it’s one of my very favorite names in the whole entire world. Yes, it is.

I’ve tried to convince my husband that Joachim is a perfect name for one of our baby boys for years. Years! I just love it — it’s oozing all that Catholic cachet that I love so much and that my other boys have; it’s offbeat and unusual; it’s Mother Mary’s dad for Pete’s sake! And Jesus’ grandfather! It’s also got a pretty pan-European feel, as every European country seems to have a version of it:

joachim - Copy

(From behindthename.com/name/joachim)

Currently there’s Joachim Löw, a “retired German footballer and current manager of the German national football team,” and “retired Irish sportsperson” Joachim Kelly, and Joaquin is probably the most recognizable thanks to actor Joaquin Phoenix

Joachim is a GREAT name!

But you know why my husband doesn’t like it? Besides the fact that no one ever seems to know how to say it?*

Joakim Noah.

Ask me if I care that there’s an NBA player with the name Joakim? (Answer: not even the tiniest of tiny bits. MAYBE if I was considering “Dennis Rodman” as a first name-middle name combo, but otherwise — no.)

Because of the name’s unusualness in America, “Every guy who watches basketball will think we named our kid after him,” he says. (A decent argument I guess.) Also, given Noah’s African roots (his grandfather was a formal professional footballer from the Republic of Cameroon), he thinks it will seem strange to those who only know the name through Noah that we of northern European descent decided to use it.

Which drives me bananas, because, first of all, I’m pretty sure the reason Noah got his name is because his mom is Swedish! Northern European! She was, in fact, Miss Sweden 1978! Joakim’s even the Scandinavian spelling — and my husband and children are Scandinavian!

As far as I can tell, the only reason the name is unusual in America is because it’s never been common in England. According to behindthename, through St. Joachim’s “popularity in the Middle Ages, the name came into general use in Christian Europe … [but] it was never common in England.” Withycombe concurs: “Joachim is recorded in England from the 13th C, but has never been in general use.” Do you agree that this is likely why it was never common here? Because it was never common in our “parent country”? Every other country — yes. But not here. I think these are great arguments in favor of us using this name — America needs to have more Joachims!

Still he says no — no no no — but when I remind him of the nickname I came up with for it (not Joe, though this would be an amazing way to get to the nickname Joe without using Joseph, if for some reason you couldn’t use Joseph), his face always softens, his mouth invountarily turns up, and he says, “That is a great nickname.”

Aren’t you dying to know?! For a boy named Joachim, I would totally use the nickname … Jake.

Jake! I love love love Jake! My husband does too! We actually considered Jacob for our firstborn, but have since moved into heavy Catholicky Catholic saint territory and Joachim seems a better fit than Jacob. AND if we had a little boy named Joachim and he hated it — he wouldn’t have to ever tell anyone! He could be Jake always!

This is a perfect name for us. I think I’ll be trying to convince my husband of it til the day I die.

Abby at Appellation Mountain has actually mentioned it a bit, including this delicious tidbit:

Speaking of greatness, the new Danish prince is set to be baptized later today. Dad is Prince Joachim. He has two sons from his first marriage – Nikolai and Felix. The new prince is Joachim’s first with second wife Marie. Royal watchers are betting on Albert for the baby’s name. Tradition dictates that the baby’s name is not revealed ’til the baptism, so we’ll have to wait and see.” (from July 2009) (It seems the baby was named Henrik, and was later joined by sister Athena.)

And she profiled its Spanish form Joaquin (in which she mentioned St. Joachim), and referred to a Swedish hockey player named Joachim (which caused me to jump right over to Google to find out who this was and found that “Swedish hockey player Joachim” yielded Wiki pages for Joachim Nermark, Joachim Rohdin, Joakim Lindström, and Joacim (sic) Eriksson, as well as “NHL players born in Sweden” which included two more, all on the first page of results).

Abby also linked to Roses and Cellar Doors “It’s Big Overseas” post which notes that “there are some name families that aren’t really used in the US at all. Their variants can be found in many other languages, but are practically unheard of in English (sometimes just American English). Weird,” and includes Joachim as one of them.

It causes me pain that this name is not known more here, and used. We know and love St. Anne — whyyy is St. Joachim neglected??

What do you all think of Joachim? Do you like it? Hate it? Find that the ah-MAZing nickname Jake (or the equally friendly and accessible Joe/Joey) makes it seem that much more attractive? Do you know anyone (especially any little ones) with this name? Does he go by the full Joachim or a nickname? What are his siblings named?

______________________________

*We would use the English pronunciation JO-ah-kim, but there are these other possibilities:

joachim - Copy (2)

(From behindthename.com/name/joachim)

(In case you can’t tell, I only recently learned how to do screen grabs, something I’ve wanted to know how to do for ages. I don’t know … are they cool? Are they not? Helpful? Annoying?)

Nicknames: Charles

My husband and I watched the 1975 BBC miniseries Poldark a while ago and, being the name nut I am, one of the things I remember the most clearly is how much I liked the name of the character Zacky Martin. The Zach- names have never been on my list (though if I had to choose my favorite I’d probably say Zachariah) (or Zechariah) (or Zacchaeus!!), and still Zacky struck me as just the greatest nickname. Maybe because it was on a middle-aged 18th-century British man that it felt a bit fresher? At any rate, my mind started clicking about Zacky … how could we work Zacky into the names we’d discussed for our boys? (I think I was pregnant with my youngest at the time.) What I came up with was: Charles.

Charles had long been on my list, being a family name, but neither of us cared for Charlie or Chuck. We liked Cal a lot, but I always worried it would turn into Callie. Watching Poldark, I totally convinced myself that Zacky could be a nickname for Charles. Charles ends in the Z sound after all (at least the way I say it), and starts with a C, and there’s an A in the middle, so I’d convinced myself that, since all the Zacky sounds and/or letters were contained within Charles, that it could totally work. (I still think so.) (I could never convince my husband.)

All that to say — Abby at Appellation Mountain has the best post of unusual/offbeat nicknames for Charles. I’ve referred to that post a few times, most recently last night as I was finishing up a name consultation. Zacky isn’t on the list (surprise!), but lots of other good ones, and one of them — Huck (!) — made me also think that Hutch could totally work for Charles. Check out Abby’s post and let me know what you think!

(Also — she spotlighted Zelie today!)